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On needing a timetable for CSS dash extensions

A couple of weeks ago, Ryan Taylor interviewed me for the Boag World bodcast on the subject of Internet Explorer 8 and the state of CSS in browsers generally.

It was fun to be interviewed by a Northerner, not that shandy drinking Southerner Boag, and Ryan's choice of topic gave me the opportunity for me to dust off my soap box once again. The segment of the interview that so far has got the most attention was when Ryan asked:

Okay, well IE8 is also missing a few of the other more popular CSS3 selectors that are available in other browsers, like border-radius and things like that. Is this a setback for CSS3?

Here's what I said in response.

The interesting thing, though, and this is the wider issue, is that there’s no strategic plan, either from the browser makers or, most importantly, from the CSS working group, where they plan in a timetable implementation of these new features. Now we’re not talking about the big design of CSS, and when are we going to get new layout features and things like that, but simple things like for example CSS columns? Webkit implements CSS columns, Mozilla implements CSS columns, but they do it independently, they do it when they want to on their own timetable, and what I’d really like to see is for these browser makers to get together and say “You know what in September, we’re going to introduce these columns across the board, and in October, or in our next release, we’re going to implement this across the board.”

Today, Mozilla's David Baron replied. He wrote.

I agree that this would be really useful. The CSS Working Group actually went through a prioritization exercise last year. […] But this exercise had two problems as far as being useful for satisfying the goals Andy set out above.

First, all the feedback was secret (emphasis mine): it was provided only to the chairs of the group, who then computed the results, rather than allowing discussion and negotiation. I think this makes it harder for people to accept the results that they don't agree with. […]

So, given the results of the CSS working group prioritization, I don't know which things that I didn't consider important were marked as more important because other Web browsers want to implement them (which might mean I should increase the priority even though I don't like them, as I did for multiple background layers), and which were marked as important because of the preferences of companies whose priorities Mozilla shouldn't care about coordinating with.

I'd love to have a forum for discussing this prioritization with other browser makers so that our work can be used by Web authors sooner and more reliably, and I think it would be better if it weren't in a pay-to-play environment like the W3C.

Wow.

Leave your comment

Tim Wright

March 13 2009 @ 12:05am #

It always seems like company heads generally agree that getting together and talking for the greater good is a positive thing. Unfortunately, it never seems to happen. My guess is that they don’t see the value in improving their product to us (the developer), only the general user who generates the majority of the revenue.

It’s unfortunate that not many people higher up actually give back to the community as a whole.

Ryan Taylor

March 15 2009 @ 01:17am #

I’m pleased our interview has generated such a response, it’s a start at least.

Of course it’s important for browser makers to be user focused and ensure that they have as good experience as possible. However more collaboration on things like CSS and which CSS3 selectors should take priority, as Andy points out, would also improve their users experience because us as developers can build better and richer websites as a result.

Imagine a world were all browsers ran off the same rendering engine and supported the same CSS styles through a collaborative effort. Then the so called “browser wars” would only lie on who supplied the best user interface and varied features within their browser.

Was a pleasure to interview you Andy. :-)

Ryan Taylor

March 15 2009 @ 03:15am #

You inspired me to blog on this if you’re interested: http://tinyurl.com/ap32bn

:-)

fantasai

March 19 2009 @ 07:11am #

IIRC the feedback was secret because the chairs wanted to get everyone’s feedback without members holding back due to not being ready to publicly disclose what they’re working on. Mozilla is very open about what they’re working on and what they’re planning to work on, so sending all of their prioritization feedback publicly makes sense. Maybe not so much for a company like Apple or Microsoft, who like keeping things under wraps until they’re close to done.

The question last year was what should the CSS Working Group work on, and members who develop and use CSS in environments outside the live onscreen Web should have a say in that as well, since they’re putting in the resources to contribute to and implement CSS and ultimately want to interoperate with CSS on the Web. The question being posed here, though, is what should the browser makers work on in coordination. That’s a separate question. It could also be asked, and could even be asked at W3C, but none of the browser vendors (not even Mozilla) has asked it. Of course the answer would only be useful if all the relevant players were willing to respond openly and to work together.

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